Interview with Nathalie Herschdorfer: Defining beauty is challenging and has always been
The Chinese version is published on NUMERO CHINA 97, April 2020. / Interview & translation by Yiping Lin
Linda Evangelista, New York ©Lindbergh Peter
Numéro : I would like to start this interview with a question about space and a question about time. (1) This is a world surrounded by advertisements, actual and virtual. We see fashion images everywhere, at MTR or bus-stations when we go to work, on TV when we return to work, at shopping malls, in magazines that we browse at coffeeshops, and popping out on web pages or apps even when we don’t actively search for them… With the abundance of these images in our daily life, what’s the significance of seeing fashion photography in a gallery or a museum?
Nathalie Herschdorfer: Yes, fashion photography is everywhere. We are constantly surrounded by fashion images, in the street, in magazines, online. They represent specific ideas about beauty, most of them stereotypes of beauty. Not all fashion images are art, most of them are uninteresting and will be forgotten right away. This is ok. They are not here to last. But some photographs go beyond this. Some images are striking and we can appreciate them without the reference to fashion, to the brand. The photographs shown in the exhibition belong to this group of images. I really consider them as art. They are not only interesting works of art, they can have a new life on an exhibition wall, they can live outside the magazine page, but at the same time they tell something about our society, our world.
You curated the exhibition “Coming into Fashion: A Century of Photography at Condé Nast” in 2012, and before that, a few exhibitions centering around Edward Steichen, father of fashion photography. As you observe, how has fashion photography changed in the recent decade? And how is this reflected in the exhibition? From the time of Steichen to now, what would you say has remained the same in fashion photography, and what has disappeared?
For the last 100 years, fashion photography has tried to define beauty. But fashion photography was always thought and made for the printed page, the fashion magazine. At least in the 20th century. In the 21st century, fashion photography is more and more developed for the screen, and quite naturally fashion photographers are making fashion films. Still and moving images go together. Steichen was an artist before being a fashion photographer. He was educated in art and knew how to make pose his models, he knew how to compose an image. He wasn’t interested in fashion itself but in image-making. The same is true for Richard Avedon or Irving Penn. They were passionate about their medium and tried to create strong works, visually strong. Most photographers working in fashion today are driven with the same motus. Make the best image! Challenge the eye! The new generation is aware of history of fashion photography. They know what was done before. They are truly open and play with all techniques and styles, highly retouched images to street photography. They are very experimental in their approaches, and create images that represent various types of beauty (not just the same stereotypes we’ve seen for the last 100 years). The body itself is photographed differently, all types of body. Today gender is also represented with more complexity.
The exhibition showcases some 100 photographs from about 50 photographers. How did you select which photographers, and what specific photographs to show in the exhibition?
My interest is about the power of images. I made a selection of works that shows how creative the photographers are. I also wanted to have all the generations represented. Some photographers in the exhibition have 4 decades of work behind them, some photographers are just starting their career… Some photographers work with a team, well known fashion models, make up artists, powerful magazines or brands. Some photographers made works with little money, no assistants. My interest was the power of their images. It is true that the most important fashion photographers are represented in the exhibition (Nick Knight, Juergen Teller, Solve Sundsbo, Miles Aldridge, Peter Lindbergh who recently died, Viviane Sassen). I didn’t plan to include all these names. I was looking for strong works and it happens that these well-known names have developed a strong photographic language. Each of them has their own way to create works, and their style are easily recognizable. I am a photography historian. I studied history of art and the way I select works for an exhibition is with this background in mind. I am not interested in the brands represented in these images, nor in the fashion models. I look first at the way a photography can trigger the eye.
PJW508 N°3946 ©Jung Paul
The
exhibition includes some monumental photographs portraying the kind of glamor
we associate with high fashion or high fashion models, such as “Snakes for Alexander McQueen” (Nick Knight), “Linda Evangelista, New York” (Peter
Lindbergh), “Elena in Gaultier” (Sølve
Sundsbø), whereas some others take on approaches that are more unfamiliar,
implicit or even elusive in their rendering of or commenting on fashion, such
as the minimal elegance of Paul Jung, the hand-painted sculptural bodies of
Viviane Sassen, and the visceral flowers with erotic implications of Maisie
Cousins. What is your intention here?
How is this exhibition redefining fashion, or the way we look at
fashion?
The exhibition brings together many different styles. I wanted to show the diversity of fashion photography. Snapshot photography is represented in the exhibition next to complex ‘mise en scene’ (complex settings, with heavy retouching). I wanted to open the exhibition to the diversity of contemporary photography. To all photographic languages My interest is to show the many avenues of fashion photography today and the talent of these fashion photographers. I want visitors understand that fashion photography is as diverse as photography is. I’m not interested in promoting one language. Bringing together different generations and mixing them on the wall is quite interesting. It is true that the young generation thinks differently about photography, about beauty, about the body. Each photographer represented in the exhibition has developed a very interesting approach and I wanted to bring this to the visitors’ attention.
The exhibition brings together many different styles. I wanted to show the diversity of fashion photography. Snapshot photography is represented in the exhibition next to complex ‘mise en scene’ (complex settings, with heavy retouching). I wanted to open the exhibition to the diversity of contemporary photography. To all photographic languages My interest is to show the many avenues of fashion photography today and the talent of these fashion photographers. I want visitors understand that fashion photography is as diverse as photography is. I’m not interested in promoting one language. Bringing together different generations and mixing them on the wall is quite interesting. It is true that the young generation thinks differently about photography, about beauty, about the body. Each photographer represented in the exhibition has developed a very interesting approach and I wanted to bring this to the visitors’ attention.
Walk with Pierre Hardy ©Leu Anaïs
In his writings on the semiology of photography,
Roland Barthes once described the face of Garbo as an “absolute mask” whose
antiquity implies “an archetype of the human face”, marking the passage from awe to charm, from
concept to substance. The classical beauty of Garbo belonged to a bygone age;
the perception of Barthes, who celebrated the magic of photography in
preserving the timelessness and the ideal as an existential essence is also not
in currency today. A lot of these fashion photographs chosen at the exhibition
stand out as quirky, provocative and even disturbing. As editor of Body: The Photography Book and co-editor
of Face: The New Photographic Portrait,
can you share some of your observations and thoughts in contemporary portraits
in relation to fashion and beauty?
Defining beauty is challenging and has always been, since Ancient times. Going through history of photography (180 years of photography), one can see that there is a constant flux of images about beauty. 20th century photography forged the image of a beautiful, slim, young, clean, luminous, strong – an utopian body to which we are all presumed to aspire. The images of beauty and health filling our magazines and commercials celebrate a body – usually female – that exists to be looked at, admired, dreamed of. The body and its appearance play a central role in our culture. Representations of ideal and fantasy bodies feed the industries of fashion, beauty and wellness. These are clearly imaginary bodies, retouched, always desirable; in fact, model bodies. Such representations have recently changed thanks to the work of women photographers who have taken a different look at the body. For instance, Viviane Sassen has found new ways to represent female beauty in both her personal work and her fashion photography. The tyranny of appearance is beginning to lose some of its power now that images are circulated globally. The photographed body is no longer solely a reflection of the mainstream but also of the margins, and it no longer has to comply with the canons of beauty set by a Western society that has defined the contours of its citizens. Beauty is no longer found only in model bodies and standard representations but is seen primarily through the eye of the beholder; and the more the eye sees of images of different bodies that display their freedom, the freer the imagination becomes.
There has been a lot of discussions concerning the ontology of photography since it was born, and in particular in the transition from analog to digital. Despite that digital has become a popular way of photographic creation, quite a few photographers still prefer to shoot in analog, even when they work on fashion photography. In your opinion, do you think the material form of photography is an important concern in the genre of fashion photography?
I don’t care if photographers shoot digital or analog. They have to find their own way to create an imagery. For some photographers, it is very important to work analog as they look for specific colours, specific rendering. Others need all the digital tools to make work. I can appreciate both techniques and what matters is how a photographer plays with her/his medium. For many years, photographers would say that the digital cameras were not good enough. Today this is not relevant anymore. We don’t ask painters to describe their tools. Why do we always need to have this information from the photographers? As long as they master their technique…
Defining beauty is challenging and has always been, since Ancient times. Going through history of photography (180 years of photography), one can see that there is a constant flux of images about beauty. 20th century photography forged the image of a beautiful, slim, young, clean, luminous, strong – an utopian body to which we are all presumed to aspire. The images of beauty and health filling our magazines and commercials celebrate a body – usually female – that exists to be looked at, admired, dreamed of. The body and its appearance play a central role in our culture. Representations of ideal and fantasy bodies feed the industries of fashion, beauty and wellness. These are clearly imaginary bodies, retouched, always desirable; in fact, model bodies. Such representations have recently changed thanks to the work of women photographers who have taken a different look at the body. For instance, Viviane Sassen has found new ways to represent female beauty in both her personal work and her fashion photography. The tyranny of appearance is beginning to lose some of its power now that images are circulated globally. The photographed body is no longer solely a reflection of the mainstream but also of the margins, and it no longer has to comply with the canons of beauty set by a Western society that has defined the contours of its citizens. Beauty is no longer found only in model bodies and standard representations but is seen primarily through the eye of the beholder; and the more the eye sees of images of different bodies that display their freedom, the freer the imagination becomes.
There has been a lot of discussions concerning the ontology of photography since it was born, and in particular in the transition from analog to digital. Despite that digital has become a popular way of photographic creation, quite a few photographers still prefer to shoot in analog, even when they work on fashion photography. In your opinion, do you think the material form of photography is an important concern in the genre of fashion photography?
I don’t care if photographers shoot digital or analog. They have to find their own way to create an imagery. For some photographers, it is very important to work analog as they look for specific colours, specific rendering. Others need all the digital tools to make work. I can appreciate both techniques and what matters is how a photographer plays with her/his medium. For many years, photographers would say that the digital cameras were not good enough. Today this is not relevant anymore. We don’t ask painters to describe their tools. Why do we always need to have this information from the photographers? As long as they master their technique…
Peking Opera ©Xue Kiki
The
exhibitions you curated previously mainly toured in the West, whereas this one
premiered in Hong Kong before traveling to Shanghai. What are the
considerations beyond the geographical decision? What are the next cities on
the list? While fashion photography has been shaped by a predominantly Western
gaze, this exhibition does have a few Asian names, including two Chinese photographers, Feng Li
and Kiki Xue. What attracts you in their works?
History of photography has mainly developed in western countries. It was born in Europe. For a long time, Western photography has influenced photographers all around the world. Fashion photography has been developed in the US and in Europe and this tradition came to Asia. Fashion magazines in China, for what I saw, has brought this tradition. I am a specialist in photography but I know mostly about European and American photography. I am interested to know more about Chinese photography but there are not so many Chinese photographers exhibited in Europe (where I am based). The show includes the work of Feng Li. I love his work. It has humour and the way the images are composed are unusual. I think there is a freshness in the work. I wouldn’t say that Feng Li is represented of Chinese photography. But yes, I was very interested to bring him into this exhibition. And I would be happy to include other artists from Asia if I discover new works. The exhibition will then be shown in Changsha, and possibly Beijing so it gives the possibility to open the doors to a few Chinese works. Any suggestions?
Last but not least, I also notice a “feminist” tendency in this exhibition, with photography from Coco Capitan, Zoë Ghertner, the aforementioned Viviane Sassen and Maisie Cousins, etc., that challenge or escape the conventional male gaze. Is this a conscious gesture?
Totally. I really think that female artists bring something different. Specifically in fashion photography that has been made by male photographers. Very few female photographers have worked in fashion photography. I am very happy to see more and more works by female photographers working in this field. They look at the female body differently. Today’s photographers (female and male) are distancing themselves from iconic and idolized bodies (stereotyped bodies). With the new generation of photographers, and the women brought something new in the field, the body is celebrated in its diversity and shown as politicized, feminist. Also in fashion photography.
This is the generation of Instagram and short-form video streaming. In what ways are digital culture and social media reshaping and reinventing fashion photography?
Many photographers still working today have started their career before the digital era, they had to reinvent a new way of working to be able to survive. They spent most of their career working for the magazine page. Today they rethink their work to adapt to other supports, exhibitions but also screens. With the new generation, it is quite different. They were born with Internet, and they have learn to look at photography first with their phones. They know that their work will be seen on digital support or printed big in the street! Of course, social media have changed the way photography has been distributed. And everybody is now a photographer. We can share instantly our images with millions of people all around the world. Professional photographers know about that and can’t compete. They have to think differently. What fascinates me is that fashion photographers (even the well-known names) have Instagram accounts and thousands followers. Somehow, it is more people following them now online than readers in magazines. Think about Nick Knight, Solve Sundsbo, Erik Madigan Heck, Daniel Sannwald.... They all use Instagram and understand the power of the small screens! They also produce images that will be shown first on phones. I’m convinced that it changes the way to produce images.
History of photography has mainly developed in western countries. It was born in Europe. For a long time, Western photography has influenced photographers all around the world. Fashion photography has been developed in the US and in Europe and this tradition came to Asia. Fashion magazines in China, for what I saw, has brought this tradition. I am a specialist in photography but I know mostly about European and American photography. I am interested to know more about Chinese photography but there are not so many Chinese photographers exhibited in Europe (where I am based). The show includes the work of Feng Li. I love his work. It has humour and the way the images are composed are unusual. I think there is a freshness in the work. I wouldn’t say that Feng Li is represented of Chinese photography. But yes, I was very interested to bring him into this exhibition. And I would be happy to include other artists from Asia if I discover new works. The exhibition will then be shown in Changsha, and possibly Beijing so it gives the possibility to open the doors to a few Chinese works. Any suggestions?
Last but not least, I also notice a “feminist” tendency in this exhibition, with photography from Coco Capitan, Zoë Ghertner, the aforementioned Viviane Sassen and Maisie Cousins, etc., that challenge or escape the conventional male gaze. Is this a conscious gesture?
Totally. I really think that female artists bring something different. Specifically in fashion photography that has been made by male photographers. Very few female photographers have worked in fashion photography. I am very happy to see more and more works by female photographers working in this field. They look at the female body differently. Today’s photographers (female and male) are distancing themselves from iconic and idolized bodies (stereotyped bodies). With the new generation of photographers, and the women brought something new in the field, the body is celebrated in its diversity and shown as politicized, feminist. Also in fashion photography.
This is the generation of Instagram and short-form video streaming. In what ways are digital culture and social media reshaping and reinventing fashion photography?
Many photographers still working today have started their career before the digital era, they had to reinvent a new way of working to be able to survive. They spent most of their career working for the magazine page. Today they rethink their work to adapt to other supports, exhibitions but also screens. With the new generation, it is quite different. They were born with Internet, and they have learn to look at photography first with their phones. They know that their work will be seen on digital support or printed big in the street! Of course, social media have changed the way photography has been distributed. And everybody is now a photographer. We can share instantly our images with millions of people all around the world. Professional photographers know about that and can’t compete. They have to think differently. What fascinates me is that fashion photographers (even the well-known names) have Instagram accounts and thousands followers. Somehow, it is more people following them now online than readers in magazines. Think about Nick Knight, Solve Sundsbo, Erik Madigan Heck, Daniel Sannwald.... They all use Instagram and understand the power of the small screens! They also produce images that will be shown first on phones. I’m convinced that it changes the way to produce images.
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